Episode 38: Optimize Our Executive Presence With Fashion Tips From Joanna Lovering
With RTO mandates becoming more common, you might find yourself wondering what to wear to the office. Are we still doing business casual? What does that even mean?
Whether we like it or not, we are judged (consciously or unconsciously) first based on what we look like before we are judged by what we say or do. If that is the reality, then let's optimize what we wear to work!
On today's episode, Executive Presence Consultant and Organizational Psychologist, Joanna Lovering, gives us the break down:
Why what you wear to work matters
How our clothes impact our mood
Formula to pull together any outfit
How to dress for the office vs. zoom
Full Transcript:
I'm so excited for you to hear this super fun and informative conversation with my friend, Joanna Lovering today, we're talking about. Fashion, what to wear to work. And just the formulas around pulling together those amazing outfits. That you can wear to work in, in certain situations where you can truly just feel confident and in your power. So let me tell you just a little about Joanna. So Joanna is a leadership and presence consultant who helps companies engage, develop and retain their pipeline of female leaders. She believes that when companies invest in and promote women, they can achieve unrivaled results.
Her expertise is implementing and facilitating programs that teach women the leadership skills that other. Other people think are unteachable, like presence, confidence, and self-advocacy. With an ma in [00:02:00] organizational psychology for Columbia university and 15 years of leadership development experience at companies like jet blue, Microsoft Lorielle Tiffany red bull. Lulu lemon. Daily burn all these amazing companies. Joanna has worked extensively in both corporate and startup settings, leading teams as large as 85. She's proud to be a champion for women leaders and to partner with companies from all sectors who believe in the necessity of female leadership as passionately as she does. Joanne's writings and insights on leadership presence and style have been featured in the wall street journal real simple fast company her money huffing the HuffPost, the muse glassdoor fairygodboss the ladders and more let's dive in today's episode i'm so excited for you all to hear it let's go
Nicole Case: Welcome back to the Upgraded Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Nicole Case. And today I am joined by my friend, Joanna Lovering, who is the founder of Copper and Rise and is an executive presence consultant and [00:03:00] organizational psychologist. Super fun and fancy. Joanna, I'm so excited that you're here. I'm so excited.
Let's do this. Let's do this. I'm so excited for this topic. I really, really am because today we are talking about. Fashion at work and I'm excited about it. And let me tell you, I've always been, I've always been into fashion, into clothes, into beauty. I appreciate it as an art form and as a craft. But I feel like it gets a bad rap, like we're told that clothes and doing ourselves up and how we do our hair, like all of that stuff is just, it's vain.
It's frivolous. We shouldn't care about any of that. We have other things that we need to worry about, particularly, I think, as women, this is like weaponized against us as women in particular, and that's a whole big, deep topic. Um, we don't really have time for today, frankly.
Joanna Lovering: That's a whole other podcast episode,
Nicole Case: but[00:04:00]
where, where I really want to go today and why I, why I reached out to you specifically to have this conversation is because I do believe what we
Joanna Lovering: wear at work
Nicole Case: makes a difference. It matters. The reality is that like, we would love to be able to say that it doesn't matter, but the reality is it does.
Joanna Lovering: So that's the truth.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.
Nicole Case: Let's just, first I wanna ask you about like your career journey, you know, kind of how you got to this place, how are you an executive presence consultant and, and you've got a styling thing that you got going on. Yeah. And look, all these, tell me about your whole career and then we're gonna dive into this really fun topic of just fashion
Joanna Lovering: at work.
Sure, sure. Well, again, and listeners, like, how great is Nicole's podcast? I love listening to her. Every time I hear her voice, I feel so energized. So I am really, really excited to be here. Um, uh, the quick rundown of my career is that [00:05:00] it's a really wholesome, wholesome video. Winding road. Um, I will just say from the time I knew that I wanted to influence people and help people reach their potential.
I was in graduate school for organizational psychology. That is not, by the way, the psychology of organizing spaces. Oh, you're a closet organizer. And I'm like, I do do that, but that's not what my master's degree from Columbia is. And organizational psychology is basically the psychology of workplaces.
And I specialized in leadership, group dynamics and coaching. After that, I was in the corporate world, baby, an internal human management consultant. Doing all the cool HR stuff, I say, no offense to anybody that is an HR generalist, but I think I did the really [00:06:00] cool stuff by teaching management classes, coaching people one on one.
And I realized over time that as I got more into my career, I was missing a little bit of the creative outlet that I always used to have being from the theater when I was a kid. So I always knew, even starting in graduate school, people looked to me for fashion advice. I'll never forget in graduate school.
One of my colleagues and friends to this day said to me, she asked me if I would go shopping with her because she had her first grad school interview. Um, and so we went to Bloomingdale's, I'll never forget it. And I was like, you know, this is really fun. I don't find it that mentally taxing and it's such a great, uh, creative outlet for me.
I started in graduate school. Almost every weekend or every other weekend, [00:07:00] someone was asking me to help them with finding a pair of glasses, finding them an outfit for this wedding, yada, yada. I started to become an independent stylist, completely self trained, but I was working for a small startup. And then eventually I went off on my own.
And so Copper and Rise actually started as a style coaching company. I was still working full time in the world of leadership development. And then on the side, I had my creative outlet. Then the pandemic, who the heck was getting dressed? Everything went to crapola and I, I made the really conscious choice.
Not necessarily to pivot my business, but just add in all of the things that I have been doing for years. And so that's how I see executive presence, coaching and consulting. It's leadership plus stage presence [00:08:00] plus wardrobe. It's all the ways that people make a judgment about us. All those data points.
Speaking, acting, looking, right? I say, why not optimize those data points so that you can come off in the best possible light to your audience. That was a long answer, but that was it.
Nicole Case: I know. I so love that. And I think, and you are probably the only coach out there, coach consultant out there that I think that has like pulled all of these things together in this way.
Yeah. And it's just genius to me because you're so right. It's, it's all of those elements to our executive presence that I, you know, I'm talking to my clients about as well all the time, but like the way you have just pulled this together, also just utilizing your strengths and your skills, like that just, that just makes me so like warm and fuzzy and happy inside.
Thank you. Yeah. Somebody has like figured out these are all the things that I really like and let me pull it all together in a way that makes sense and it totally makes [00:09:00] sense and you're out there helping people in the best way that you know, how again, utilizing your strengths and your skills and your interests.
They
Joanna Lovering: love, I mean, listen, I feel like my career has always been a bit of a patchwork quilt. Kind of that even started in undergrad too, because in, in my undergrad at Carnegie Mellon, I kind of had a build your own major type thing. So I, I'm kind of used to this, this is kind of my mo that I have a patchwork quilt.
Um, when I was working in corporate in learning development, I, I actually at first felt very secure. In that corporate environment where you know that your next move is probably going to be a vertical one. And so I would look up the silo and think, okay, I have a path. I have a place to go. The problem was, is that I would look above and I would say, yeah, but I don't want to be you.
Like, this is not. What I, what I'm aspiring to [00:10:00] be. And so that's why I've always had a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And I've put it together. Unfortunately, you know, executive presence is a great way to, to umbrella all of the things that I really love in life. Yeah.
Nicole Case: Yeah. I love that. Well, again, so glad that you are here.
And I've just been thinking about this topic, particularly since, um, since one, there's all of this talk about returning to office, you know, right now it's a really hot topic, um, just kind of out there in the community. And so, like, even just me being out there, just, you know, going to stores and I'm just like, what are we wearing today?
Like, what are we wearing today? Like, we don't, we don't know. So let's back up 1st, though, and say, 1st of all, why does it even matter what we wear? What, why does what we wear, why does fashion matter in the workplace? Why does, why do we have to care about this? You
Joanna Lovering: know, under the hood, there's a part of me that [00:11:00] actually kind of hates the fact that it matters.
Can I just caveat everything I'm about to say with, I kind of, I kind of hate the fact that people are judging us on the way we look because that is so unfair, that is so old school. Uh, and the feminist in me is really disgusted by that. Okay. Yeah. Because it's a lot of bite.
Nicole Case: Totally agree. Let's all agree about that.
We're all still feminists here.
Joanna Lovering: However. So I'm also, um, another caveat, caveat number two. Is that I am certainly not here to advocate for things like, um, really rigid dress codes. I'm not here for, um, the old school measurements and size categorizations for flight attendants. Or, uh, you know, women of color having to straighten their hair, they can't have natural hair.
I am so not here for [00:12:00] advocating for patriarchal rules. Within the workplace that, that, uh, I, I would say rule over women. Okay. Yeah, a hundred percent.
Nicole Case: A hundred percent. And as, as a, as a retired, like I like to say as a retired HR leader, yes. Um, like dress codes were. Like, I was, I hated dress codes in the workplace because who, who's the one that has to come up with them and who's the one that has to police them.
But me in HR, which is silly. Like, I was actually just having this conversation with, um, with a group of leaders this week. I was doing some leadership training this week and we were having this conversation about, about return to the office and things like that. And, and, and checking badges to see, you know, who's in the office and who's not in the back in the office.
And I was like. Yeah. Things like tracking people where they are and what they're wearing. I have so many other things that I need to be doing than to be worrying about if the women [00:13:00] in Kansas City are wearing LuLaRoe leggings to work or not and if it's appropriate for them to be wearing LuLaRoe leggings or not to work.
Like I don't care. Just wear clothes, please. Just please wear clothes.
Joanna Lovering: And yeah, just please wear clothes. Please don't show up to work. Unclothed, but sure. Sure. I mean, I feel like HR leaders as well as people managers have a lot of other things to do the issue comes when the, the rule, the unspoken rules, there's always unspoken rules.
There's always implicit rules when they are, when they're really hard to interpret. When they don't sometimes become explicit and they stay implicit always, that's when we run into trouble, especially with those who are new to the [00:14:00] organization or new to the industry. And so we have to. Maybe this is a whole other conversation as well, but it's on leadership, and I don't think it's necessarily HR leadership, but it's on leadership to, to hold space for learning about culture and cultural norms within an organization.
Again, that's a whole other topic, but your question was, why does fashion matter? So here's the thing, as much as I hate the fact that fashion matters. The fact is that we are animals and we can't help it. We can't help it. Okay? So when we were all monkeys looking out for lions, making sure that we weren't going to get eaten that day, we were hyper vigilant about monitoring our surroundings and Monitoring, okay, if I see [00:15:00] another person in this surrounding or another organism in this, uh, in this surrounding, is that person or animal or whatever, is it going to help me or hurt me so our fight or flight.
Responses are so ingrained in us. We can't get rid of it. And believe it or not, that even comes into play when we are perceiving others and 55 percent of meaning from any communication at all comes from what we see with our eyes. Think about that for a second. Yeah. Only 7 percent comes from the words that we say.
38 percent comes from the way we sound when we say those words, pitch, volume, et cetera. But 55 percent comes from the way I literally see you. [00:16:00] So fashion matters because It has over half of the way that I'm going to perceive you, aka the way that I'm going to judge you. That's why it matters. So why not, if we're, if we know this to be true, this is a given, why not optimize what they see?
Like, why not? And so that's where fashion comes into play. Yeah,
Nicole Case: yeah. Oh, my gosh. I didn't I didn't know all of those stats. That's that's incredible to know that. So, a lot of times we spend so much time thinking about what we're going to say, of course, we forget about all of those other things that are, like, even more important in a lot of respects.
So that's just that's just wild. And I would also add from just the person wearing the clothes, I can tell you that I feel. Way more in my [00:17:00] power, way more confident when I'm wearing clothes that fit me, that, like, the, the, the fabric feels good, you know, that, like, I feel like, hey, I'm, I'm looking good today.
Like, I feel good today. And, and I know what the opposite of that feeling is when I'm wearing an outfit that I'm like, oh, this doesn't quite fit me the way that I'd like it to, or, you know, the tags bother in me in the back and it's itchy or whatever. Right? Like, so it's on both sides, right? It's not only what the person is, is interpreting or perceiving.
It's also just you feeling good in your own skin. Right?
Joanna Lovering: You're absolutely right. And actually the science tells us. That the it's almost cyclical the way that our clothes affect our mood and our mood affects our clothes, right? So you're absolutely right and I'm not here to say, you know, that your experience is right or wrong.
What I'm saying is that your, your experience [00:18:00] supports. The science that says that if you are wearing well fitting clothes, that for, in whatever criteria you deem to be important, that you like this outfit, your mood will be more elevated, plain and simple.
Nicole Case: So me obsessing over what I'm going to wear at a really big talk that I'm giving is okay.
Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: That's, that's valid. It matters. It matters. Not only does it affect your mood, but it also, all of those same. Data point, or let's say variables, all those same variables, like does it fit? What color is it? What's the silhouette? All that stuff. Those are data points that your audience for your big talk, your audience is going to take in and make a judgment about you as well.
So what you wear is a, makes a huge contribution to how people perceive you and how you perceive yourself. [00:19:00] Might as well optimize it. Might as well kick that in the ass.
Nicole Case: Frankly, right, right. Yeah. Let's not let's not hide behind. Let's not hide behind the fear that we're going to look frivolous, or we're going to sound vain for being concerned about what we're wearing.
Because, like, you're you've just shared with us. The data speaks to. That actually, this is something we should be paying that if we want to be paying attention to it, it's going to pay off.
Joanna Lovering: I, I, I wish. We could be judged on our results and the quality of our work. And I know that there are certain industries that are, that are more quality focused than others, or maybe certain roles that are more quality focused than others.
I, I know that, but I'm saying on the whole, on the whole, if you're not living under a rock, which I don't think most of us are, especially the people listening to this podcast, it matters.
Nicole Case: All right. So, okay. We've established that it matters. [00:20:00] I love the science. That's backing it up. I love me some good data that back backs it up.
So now that we are. Quote unquote, hopefully on the other side of this of this pandemic that we that just kind of just everything just totally went to shit. And everyone's like, what am I doing? Now? We're kind of on the other side of this. Now, people are starting to return to the office. I know, even though I don't work in an office, like, I'm going to, you know, I'm delivering trainings live now, you know, you know, talks that I'm giving right.
So what is it? What is the new dress code? What is, what is business casual? Even like, I don't think we could define business casual previously, but, but particularly now, what is business casual?
Joanna Lovering: What does that even mean? I don't even know what business casual is. And I'm a stylist. So if any listeners out there don't know what business casual is like, I get it.
I totally get it. What are people wearing to work right now? So one thing I have found through personal experience is that. [00:21:00] Offices physical offices and the way people dress they have become more polarized in terms of casualness or formality so okay, my experience has been if the office is a traditional office like a law firm or an insurance company.
Now that we've been gone for so long, when you do go into the office, everybody's getting dressed up. Okay. Okay. So for those types of offices, suits are, are in, we're doing it. We're very formal. However, I think that's, that's at least a small percentage of my clients. And I think the majority of companies that were not formal, formal, formal to begin with, they have moved from business formal to business casual [00:22:00] to casual.
Oh, my gosh. What does that mean? What does
Nicole Case: that mean? And like, where's the line?
Joanna Lovering: Right. Where is the line? So here's the deal. Is that while it's hard for me to sit here and say, You all should wear jeans or not wear jeans and make these really broad brush strokes that might not apply to you. I will say that no matter what the dress code, there is a formula for putting together, quote, put together outfits.
And I made this up because every single one of my styling clients comes to me and they say, you know, I'll ask the question, how do you want people to perceive you? And they say, put together. Yeah, I'm like, all right. Well, how do we operationalize that? How do we define that without saying where red, not green, right?
Right. Because I'm not here to do that. So the way [00:23:00] that I say, all right, we need to have put together outfits. It's actually just 2 variables. The 1st variable is. You need to be intentional about the context that you're going to be in that day, so you need to match the context. If you are going to be in a client facing meeting where you need to make a good impression, you're going to up the formality.
I mean, listen, this is not rocket science. We all know this, but you just don't want to be dissonant in terms of your context. That's the first piece. The second piece is the rule of three. This is it. If you walk, my friends who are listening, if you walk away with anything from this podcast episode, it's the rule of three.
The rule of three is this, and this is, um, this is a guideline, this is not a rule and it can be bent. Okay. Okay. But here it [00:24:00] is. The rule of three is you need to wear three significant items on your body. Not including shoes. Think about that. Okay. Three significant items on your body not including shoes.
So that means a top, a bottom, and something else that brings it together. Now, once we start wearing dresses, it gets a little wonky there. But this is all right, fine. But this is a way for all of us to remember that we need this extra thing, whatever it is. It could be a necklace. It could be a blazer, could be a pair of really significant glasses like what I'm wearing.
We need a 3rd thing that signals to the other people that see us that day that we actually put some thought into this. And the thought, uh, is [00:25:00] operationalized by that third thing. Now, here's the thing too, is that there could be four things. There could be five things. I'd say once we get to like six or seven, slow your roll, chill out, okay, because you might want to wear a necklace and a cuff bracelet and a hat.
Okay, cool. So it's really the rule of at least three. It's just to avoid the two that everybody does, which is I'm going to put on a pair of black slacks and I'm going to put on a blouse and I'm going to go to the office. Nope. We need a third significant thing that everybody can see that pulls it all together.
Yeah. Big Lebowski reference really tied the room together. All right. Sorry. I can't help it. Thank
Nicole Case: you for that. And, you know, that makes a lot of sense because I was actually kind of observing something similar to that. The other day that [00:26:00] I noticed a woman, I was looking at the grocery store or something like that.
And she was clearly coming from the office. She had on a pair of black slacks and a, and a, and a, and a nice pattern blouse. And I was like, Okay. That's beautiful. But I did, I, there was a part of me that was like, yeah, like finish that thought. Like there's, there's some, there was like something missing there.
And I, and I am known, um, I don't have it on, I don't have one on today, but I am known out in the wild. I'm the blazer queen.
Joanna Lovering: Yes, I know that
Nicole Case: I am the blazer queen. And so my uniform is kind of fallen into that, to that, um, that rule of three, just kind of naturally for me now on the other side of this thing, it's like, it's a pair of jeans.
It's, um, uh, like a, like a tank and then a blazer.
Joanna Lovering: Blazer. Congratulations. Easy
Nicole Case: peasy. I don't have to think about it. And I love, I love, uh, thank you for giving us these guidelines. This is helpful for me. And I'm sure a lot of other people listening because like, I got a lot that I'm thinking about and I [00:27:00] love, and I love fashion and I love, I love spending time on it and shopping and all of that stuff.
But I also like in my day to day, like I got a lot of things I'm thinking about, make it simple for me. Yeah, I can just like pick, pick, pick and go. I love that.
Joanna Lovering: There it is. Now, what that rule is not helping you with is, well, what are the three things that actually go together, right? Yeah. So if you have those questions, contact me at HopperandRye.
com. But just as an overall guideline, and granted things change a little bit when you're wearing a dress, things might change if it's really, really hot. You know, you might not want to wear a blazer. But just as a general rule, if we want to be perceived as people who are intentional, who are present, and who are put together, it's the rule of three all the way.
Nicole Case: Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, okay, so that is seeing people out in the wild, seeing people out in person, but we're [00:28:00] also still doing zooms, right? Like, we're not, we're not full on back in the office 5 days a week. Right? We're still doing zooms. And let's be clear. We're doing what we were doing zooms prior to cobit 2, right?
Let's be clear about that. Because I know in my whole career, like, Okay. I worked for larger organization, or at least global companies where not everybody sat in the same building beside each other. We I was constantly on on the phone with other with people who didn't sit beside me. So we're still going to have zoom calls.
So, you know, so how does this either change or not change when it comes to. Still being on some virtual
Joanna Lovering: calls. It really doesn't change. So that's a, that's a great thing. The only thing that's going to change is what are the three things that you're going to put on. I'm going to go ahead and assume that we're at this point, we're wearing pants on zooms, right?
And we're wearing something on the bottom. I'm going to, I realized 2020, at the beginning of the pandemic, there were all these like funny stories about, about that, but I'm going to [00:29:00] assume that there's a bottom. Then there's gotta be a top. And then what I'm saying is. That, for the most part, along with that top, there's got to be one other thing that people can see in the tiny circle or rectangle that's on the video screen.
Okay? So whether that's these glasses, and by the way, I have these glasses in lots of different colors so they can be more significant or less, it can be a necklace, it can be a headband. You know, there's lots of different ways to do it. For the most part. It really doesn't change if we go from in person to virtual.
Nicole Case: Got it. Got it. Awesome. I love that. I've been finding. Um, yeah, I kind of gravitate towards. Yeah, I actually similar thing. I mean, I might have I'm not wearing jeans right now. I'm wearing leggings. I mean, let's be clear, sure. But like still, and I've got a cardigan on and then, but then I always like, I always have like [00:30:00] earrings or a necklace or again, I almost always I'm wearing my glasses at home.
So, all right. So that makes
Joanna Lovering: sense. Yeah. That makes sense. I love that. Let me hear you. I may or may not be wearing pajama bottoms like right now. Okay. So I, I totally get it. The fact is that whatever other people can see on camera, I'm going to optimize that. Yeah. And then it's kind of like whatever people can't see on camera, I'm going to optimize that for me.
And that includes not wearing jeans when I'm sitting down all day. I'm gonna optimize that for me.
Nicole Case: Yeah, I love that. I love that. So, all right, we've talked about a lot so far today. So, is there like any other last minute top tip about pulling together an outfit or anything else like that? You just want to share with share with everyone before we go.
Joanna Lovering: Yes, 1 thing that I think is really surprising to a lot of people. is what [00:31:00] colors, what colors should I wear, Joanna? Should I go do a color analysis? I'm an autumn. Are you an autumn? Like, and you know, I have had quite a few people come to me and say, do you do color analysis? And I'm like, no, I, no offense to other people and other listeners that do do color analysis.
But for me, it's a little, it's a little old school. However, I do know. But at least on camera, as well as in person, there are certain colors that work and don't work. So let me just like, get out your notebooks, folks, here's some bullet points. Ready? Number one, let's talk about virtual meetings. If you really want to come off with poise and presence, you're not going to like this.
You're not going to like this at all. I know what you're going to say. Uh huh. Well, you're going to say, what I'm going to say is black, Navy [00:32:00] blue, dark purple, gray, these dark gray. These are colors. Remember you're on camera, right? So these dark colors are a lack of light. They're a lack of light. And so, God forbid, you know, you have dark hair like you, and then you're wearing something without, with a lack of light.
It's like, all I see is The whiteness of your skin like all I see is this right like this Uh, I don't know like a bobbing head on a black blob or something So I'd be really careful about that number two. Is that highly saturated reds and oranges So bright reds and oranges do not make a camera happy.
There's a technology reason behind it that I certainly cannot explain. But anytime we're wearing bright reds and bright [00:33:00] oranges, the camera goes a little haywire and it starts to distort. Now, in person though, there's been a lot of study about how colors affect audiences. Mmm, red. Is the color in person that affects audiences the most in terms of how much they trust you, how creative they perceive you to be, and how powerful they perceive you to be.
So red. Red. Yes. Red. Is there an opposite color to that? No, I don't know what it is. So on camera, my recommendation for what people should wear is solid colors that kind of fall away, that don't really make a huge pop because believe it or not, I want you to pop, not what you're wearing. [00:34:00] So I recommend things like taupe, light blue, lavender, a mint green, something like that, that's kind of an earth tone.
But then if you're meeting in person, I would go the opposite way and choose more saturated colors. Especially got it.
Nicole Case: Okay.
Joanna Lovering: Notice. I never said black. Uh,
Nicole Case: you did not say black. Oh, my God. She's going to take my black away
Joanna Lovering: from me right now. Never listen. The half of my closet is black. I live in New York City, but but but what we're talking about here, what we're talking about here is that executive presence is about choices and it's about.
Being intentional. So find wear black as often as you want. Just know that it's going to affect you and your audience in a certain way. So if you want to manipulate that effect, then you have to make other choices. That's all. Yeah.
Nicole Case: So one final question, very technical question. [00:35:00] Go. Talk to me about white.
Oh
Joanna Lovering: yeah. White and cream. Yeah. So on camera, bright white, like electric white, white, white, bleach white. Can also make our cameras a little haywire, especially if you don't have an external camera. If you're just using the camera that like comes with the laptop or comes with the computer, they're just not very high quality.
And so white really, um, again, it's all the lights. It's all, it's every single color. So our cameras, our cameras don't do so well with the contrast of white cream. I'm a fan. I really like cream. I just prefer cream to be the blouse that's underneath the blazer. Got it. It's a good neutral.
Nicole Case: Got it. All right.
All right. Oh, my gosh. I feel like we covered a lot of ground here today. Yeah, a lot of ground. I hope we we've all taken really great notes. It's a podcast. You can listen [00:36:00] back to it. Yeah, awesome. Um, so if we just want more of you. Joanna, where can we find you? What have you got going on? Where can we find you?
Joanna Lovering: Sure. So first of all, I'm, I'm really active on LinkedIn as well as Instagram. So on LinkedIn, just search for my name, Joanna Lovering and on Instagram, it's copper and rise, but, and is spelled out. So copper meet, meet copper, which is my hair color, bright copper red. and rise up in your life. That's copper and rise.
I also have a website, copper and rise. com. Awesome.
Nicole Case: Awesome. Oh, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for taking some time today to come in just talk to us about what the heck we're wearing now, what
Joanna Lovering: we should, how we
Nicole Case: can feel more just in our power and just build that executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: Absolutely. And if any of your listeners are interested [00:37:00] in getting more tips and tricks.
Head to my website because you can sign up for my weekly email newsletter. I rarely send more than one email a week unless I'm having an event or something. So if they're interested in more executive presence tricks. best practices for leadership, especially for those who identify as women. Please sign up for my newsletter.
Nicole Case: Awesome. We'll put links to that in the show notes. Everyone can find that really awesome. All right. Thank you so much, Joanna, for being here today. We so, so enjoyed it today.
Joanna Lovering: Love the conversation. See you soon.
