Episode 48: The Professionalism Trap & The Revolution Of Work with Anessa Fike
Professionalism is an illusion we’ve been sold.
If we’re honest, the concept of professionalism often masks the realities of workplace dynamics, leading us into a deceptive cycle.
The world is changing though and holding onto antiquated norms might impede organizational advancement (or existence).
Join me this week for a conversation with the incredible Anessa Fink!
Here's what we’re covering:
Rethinking Professionalism: Addressing how traditional norms perpetuate bias and inequality in the workplace.
The Future of Work: Advocating for inclusivity and equity
Organizational Adaptation: Strategies for navigating generational shifts and fostering a dynamic workplace culture.
Fractional Work: Exploring this innovative approach and its distinctions from traditional consulting and freelancing.
Get Anessa's latest book, "The Revolution of Work: F*ck the Patriarchy and the Workplace it Built"!
Full Transcript:
Today on the upgraded leader podcast, I am interviewing my friend Anessa Fike and we are talking about this idea of professionalism, what it means to be professional in the workplace, how this is actually a trap and a complete load of bull crap and how it actually maintains the status quo and inadvertently hurts. In harms people of marginalized communities and what we can do better as leaders. So Anessa Fike is the CEO and founder of Fike.
And. A fractional people and talent leadership firm that specializes in working with companies that are experiencing growth, transition, or transformation. She's also the author of the recently released book, the revolution of work, fuck the patriarchy and the workplace. It built. I am so excited for you to get your hands on this book.
I'm so excited for you to listen to this really, really important conversation that her and I have. Let's dive in.
Nicole Case: Welcome back to the upgraded leader podcast, where we talk about all things, managing up, building relationships, leading our teams, [00:01:00] personal brands, setting goals, tearing down the motherfucking patriarchy and succeeding in our career on our own terms. Today, I am so excited to have my friend, Anessa Fike, as we talk about her new book and also how to be a professional.
At work. So, Anissa, thank you so much for being here.
Anessa Fike: My gosh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to chat about all of these things with you today. Yeah.
Nicole Case: Yeah. I'm so, I'm so, so, so thrilled. This is like, such a long time coming, I think, but 1st, before we dive into all that goodness, just tell us about you, your career, your journey.
Like, how did where have you come from? And how did you get here today?
Anessa Fike: Yeah. So, um, interesting journey. I actually started out as a journalist. Um. Yeah. I went to school for journalism, uh, went to college for it, and then I started to be a journalist. I was a newspaper reporter, and then it was a very interesting time in journalism, especially if I'm going to date myself, but it was back when actually.
[00:02:00] Newspapers were trying to decide what to put online. I know that seems like it was so long ago, but it actually wasn't so long ago. Um, and the journalism industry was going through a major transition phase. And I looked around and I thought I might want to take a break from being a journalist and went and managed a bridal salon for about a year with a friend of mine.
And then I had a college roommate that. Worked at the Motley Fool, and she said, there's a job here that I think you would be amazing at. And I was like, what is this place? It's the Motley Fool. I looked into it, and I looked around at all the perks and benefits and amazingness that was the Motley Fool at that time.
And I started my job at the Motley Fool. I went through the interviews, got the job. I actually started as an executive assistant to the chief people officer, chief technology officer, and the president at the time. That's amazing. And supported their team, so I supported teams, those 3 teams. It was like, 60 [00:03:00] people at that time, maybe a little less, but then we grew, we kept growing as an organization.
And. After about 6 months, the chief people officer and the president came to me. Together, and they said, we each have a promotion slash job offer for you and you get to pick. I was like, okay. And the president was really was like, very business focus, very much like. Spreadsheets and business strategy, which I like all those things.
I don't necessarily love spreadsheets, but I love all the strategy things. And then the chief people officer said, or you can, you can try your hand at HR and I think you'd be really good at some of these things. And so I thought about it and I decided to go down the HR path. And so I, I did a bunch of HR projects that were on the back burner, as we all know, that can tend to happen in HR.
And I got through all of them really quickly, completed all of them. And I came to him and I said, okay, great. Those are done now. [00:04:00] What would you like to try your hand at recruiting? And I was like, sure. So I, um, I ended up doing a ton of recruiting. Then I did all the recruiting. And then once I was doing all the recruiting, he said, you're doing the job.
Do you want the title? And I said, sure. And then, um, you know, fast forward a couple of years later, and I, um, I guess about a year later, and I was promoted to global recruiting director. So, I was in my mid 20s, and I was running an entire recruiting team across the world for the Motley Fool and that was, um.
It's not too often in our careers where we get, we get to have these experiences and these opportunities where they let you do whatever you kind of want to do and try whatever you want to try. And I got so much experience. It seems like I got like a decade of experience in that almost four years at the Motley Fool because I saw so much and I was able to dive into do so much.
So I really [00:05:00] look back and think about all of the just opportunity that was given to me and all of the faith and. Confidence that was given to me to try things in that time. And then from there, um, we decided, my husband and I decided we wanted to start a family and we did not want to do it in DC because DC mortgage prices, DC daycare prices, we were like, we don't really want to do that.
So, um, we decided to move back to North Carolina. And, um, I went to the chief people officer and the CEO at the time at the Motley Fool and I said, would you open North Carolina if I wanted to move there as a state to work within? And they said, we don't really want to open a whole state at the moment, but.
What if you started your own business and we were your 1st client and so I said, huh? Okay. Well, I've never thought of of that and, um, then we that's how we got started. That's how if I can co became a thing and it started out as. Recruiting and then later we rebranded to fight and co. Um, so yeah, I got, got started in the [00:06:00] fractional space 10 and a half years ago, and it was because the Motley Fool had such confidence in me to say, we will be your first client if you go out on your own.
That's so
Nicole Case: cool. That's like, and, and how, what an amazing opportunity that, that you were gifted at that, even at that stage of your career, like, yeah, holy cow. That's amazing. So for those, for those of us out here who don't exactly know what fractional work is or what a fractional HR, like, what is, what is a fractional whatever mean?
Anessa Fike: What does that mean? Right, so a lot of people tie fractional to consulting and it is, but it isn't. So there are a couple of different ways to look at this. There's differences between fractional and consulting and advisership and freelancing. And for fractional, the best way to describe this is it's someone who has led teams previously.
So has an executive experience. Someone who has had that typically that VP or that C suite title already, um, or at that level. And then someone who has [00:07:00] experience across several brands, companies, organizations, dynamics, so they can see sort of across and see trends across. Um, it's not always that case, but that's how it typically lends to be.
Um, on the fractional side, I would say it really is both strategy and execution on the operation. So you have to have both of those things. Consulting really is just executing on someone else's strategy. Advising is only strategizing, not executing. So it's kind of like you get one or the other, but not both with advising and consulting.
And then freelancing is really different in that it's set for a very specific skill set. It's typically. An individual contributor skill sets like a UX designer or graphic designer or someone on the product side. They have a very specific skill set. That that company needs from that person. So that's more on the freelancing side.
So. In the fractional space, essentially, we work and bring expertise to organizations that can't always afford full time. Um, C [00:08:00] suite or executives, and we're able to bring a wide array of experience and trends that we've seen across multiple organizations. To that organization to help them do as much work, if not more than an in house person in half or a fraction of the time.
And so that's kind of what you're, what you're getting is that impact, that impact and results focus, as opposed to, you know, here's my salary and I'm here for six months.
Nicole Case: Yeah, yeah, so maybe someday we'll bring you back and we can do an entire deep dive on fractional work, you know, starting a side hustle, or just start, you know, starting to dip your toe into this.
I have a lot of clients myself, a lot of private clients myself that are that are starting to like. Think about that as their next step in their careers are starting to think about either going out and consulting or doing fractional. So maybe so future podcast episode. But one of the things that like really kind of, um, struck me was the fact [00:09:00] that like you have seen just so much.
In your career, because of this fractional workflow, you're able to go into all of these different companies and see just kind of the, the shit show basically that they, that everybody else has got going on. Great. And it's, if I tell my clients sometimes whenever they're like feeling like they need, they, they want to move on, but they're feeling a little bit guilty about it.
And I was like, just go interview at places because 99 percent of the time, you'll find out that they're a giant mess and you end up staying right where you are. It's all good. And, and as, as like every HR leader, or probably just even just people leader I've met, like, we all trade. Like wild stories and we all say like someday I'm going to write a book like I could totally write a book about this and you know what you have done that you have done that so tell us
Anessa Fike: about
Nicole Case: your book that is out and just kind of like how how that came
Anessa Fike: about.
Yes. So the book is called the [00:10:00] revolution of work. The subtitle is Fuck the Patriarchy in the Workplace it Built, and it really is a couple of different things. And I'll kind of go into why I decided to write the book too, because it kind of goes into what's in the book. So as you mentioned, I've seen like 120 companies that we've worked with, organizations and companies.
Across the world in like 30 countries over the last 10 and a half years and we've seen some we've seen some shit We've seen some trends, you know, we've seen stuff and so we've worked across Um, VC firms, PE firms, angel backed, private, you know, private companies, public companies, nonprofit organizations, and we have seen things and trends that connect the dots.
And what I kept coming back to, and what I kept getting frustrated about. Was this element of the status quo and how it's hindering us from moving work forward. And I wanted to [00:11:00] showcase the difference of the future of work, which we had heard about for a decade and not. Oh, yeah, right. It's just like, we keep saying these buzzwords and no one actually knows what they mean, and it doesn't actually do anything.
Um, and I wanted to push us forward because there's a lot of what we do. That is leading to what is not working in work and why so many people are disengaged right now that we needed to shake up. We needed almost to dismantle the entire way that we think about work, the system of work in itself, the structure that we have set up everything to really dismantle it and almost start from scratch to say, how can we build work?
That works within our lives. Instead of consumes our lives. And so that is why I wanted to, to write the book. And I also, in this book, it is not like your typical HR book. You are not going to read. An aggregate of of other people's stories, you know, 50 other HR leaders stories. You're not going to read a bunch of data.
It's not an academic book. It's it's very [00:12:00] much a, these are the things I've seen. Here's why this is a trend and also here's how this stacks up and why it is. Keeping the status quo and the patriarchy alive. And here's why that's wrong, right? Here's what's messed up with that. And so this book, and I don't know if I'll write a second one, but if I do write a second one, this book asks the question and showcases the problem around like, here is how and why so much is wrong with work and why we need a revolution.
And a little, you know, a couple of recommendations and suggestions at the end. But if I ever write a 2nd book, the 2nd book will be like, and here's how we fix it, right? So it was like, all right, all of that together to say, I've got to get these stories out. And I can't be the only one seeing this. And over the years, I know I'm not the only one seeing these trends.
I know that every HR leader goes. Yep. That's an issue. Yep. That's a problem. And so it's not just me, but it's my version of what I've seen, my experience with these trends and [00:13:00] what I see, you know, happening and why it adds to why work sucks at the moment. Right.
Nicole Case: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so first of all, on behalf of every HR person out there, thank you so much for For putting, again, our thoughts and feelings and experiences out on paper, because, like, I had the pleasure of being a beta reader for this book, and I, like, so related to, like, every single page and every single word and every single story.
One of the stories that really, one of the parts that really, really, um, really stuck with me was this idea of professionalism. So I worked in corporate HR myself for over a decade and just one of my biggest pet thieves was like having a dress code. Like, come on, like. And I hated the dress code idea because who's going to enforce the dang thing, but me in HR.
And I can certainly tell you that I have much better things to do with my time than to worry about. [00:14:00] If someone in the Kansas city office is wearing a bright pattern, LuLaRoe legging, like true story, seriously, like this was like a whole thing when LuLaRoe was first coming on the scene was like super popular.
Like there was all these women in this Kansas city office were wearing LuLaRoe leggings and everyone was up in arms about it. And I'm like, come on people, like they're not customer facing. And even if they were customer facing who could anyway, it was like a whole thing, but I mean, like, believe me, I love dressing up.
I love fashion. You and I both like, like connect on that. I did a whole podcast episode with my friend Joanna a couple episodes ago on fashion at work. So I love dressing up, but I also don't like to be told what to do. So let's. Like, I have had, you know, like, I have tattoos, I had purple hair for a period of time, like, I can be just as effective in my job in a pair of jeans as I am in an Ann Taylor shift dress and matching blazer.
Like, believe me, I love a good blazer. I have also worked in other environments where they didn't have a dress code, but [00:15:00] they would just say, people just need to dress professionally. And this is also a trap by just by like, like you think that like you're being like, so like forward and progressive by just by not having a dress code, just saying to dress professionally, this is actually not, not.
helping us either. So, so like, let's just even just think about what does it actually even mean when people say to dress professionally or to be professional? What does that actually mean? What do they actually mean when they say that?
Anessa Fike: Well, so for me, it's, it's one of those things too. And by the way, I think you and I have talked about this previously, but I also don't like being told what to do.
Really? Not a lot of people do not a lot of adult people like to be told what to do. And I have a real problem with authority, which might be why I started my own business and, but, but professionalism to me is, is this made up it's this made up illusion, right? So if we ask. 9 out of 10, [00:16:00] 10 people, 9 out of 10 of them, if we say, what does a professional look like to you?
It's probably going to be a white guy in a suit, right? And that's not okay, right? It's not okay. It doesn't make sense. And, and what I write about in the book that I know you've read about too, is that if we go into a meeting with a bunch of white guys in suits, Do we think that that room is full of more intelligent people than if we go into a room where everyone has and looks differently and is intersectional and is showcasing the beauty of whatever they want to showcase the beauty of their personality that day?
No, like, it's not like this, like Marvel or Avengers suit that you put on that makes you instantly more intelligent. It just doesn't work like that, but we act like it does. And so it's this weird. So it's such a weird illusion that was made up to make people feel less than it was made up to make a hierarchy be put in [00:17:00] place, right?
It was made up so that we, they wanted us to think about, you know, and when I say that, I mean, the patriarchy wanted us to think about white men in suits. When we think about a professional, they have succeeded, right? That is the illusion that they built and they have succeeded in that. And now that we're starting to ask questions around Well, what the hell does a suit have to do with what, how you do your job or how intelligent you are, what you're bringing to the table?
It doesn't. Now we're starting to ask those questions around what is professional? What is professionalism? What does that mean? And it's such a social societal construct that means nothing. It really means nothing. And so when you start to look at. All of these pieces through a lens of what does that actually mean?
Who does it serve and why does it serve them to keep it in place? It goes back to this piece about the status quo, right? Like it's all going back to the status quo. The status quo was set up [00:18:00] for one specific subset of a demographic to succeed, right? So for white men to succeed. Literally, when the founding fathers, you know, were here and they started our, our country, it was set up for them.
The rules were written for them in a way that worked most for them. And it hasn't changed that much in all this time. And so for me, professionalism is not about what you wear. It's not about like what your, what your outside person looks like. It is about what can you bring to the table? Are you creative?
Are you being like, you know, are you thinking about things in a way that the business can move forward? Are you bringing a skill set or an expertise that other people don't have to the table? Those are all professional things. So it's all based on what is in your head or what is in your experience that you can bring.
It has nothing to do with the packaging. Nothing. And the packaging is what a lot of people find most important. And to your [00:19:00] point of, from an HR perspective, we have so many more other things. To focus on so many more important things to focus on that we shouldn't be worrying about what people are wearing.
And it's just a, for me, it's just a silly, silly thing when you start to break it down. It really is so silly that I wonder how it has stood the test of time for so long. Yep.
Nicole Case: And, and I think you're right. It is a really silly thing, but go ask. Any person of a marginalized community, and they will tell you that there is, there is, and can be a really big impact if they rub up against it.
Right. Right. Right. Like, so, so again, like some people out there might be like, so, okay, so where, where the fuck you want to work, where to work and just be over it. Like, why do we need a whole podcast episode about this? Well, it's because the, the systems that have been set up to support 1 population [00:20:00] of, of individual.
Right. Okay. It's not just that it's helping them succeed more, it's actually greatly negatively impacting everyone else. So tell us more about, tell us more about that. Why does this matter? What happens to people who go against that grain, who push up against whatever the organization deems as professional?
Anessa Fike: Right, so what happens is like this, you know, this thing is like, you said, it's a trap earlier, right? Where it's like, just wear what you want. That's a trap. And it just for organizations that aren't. Maybe they think they're progressive, but they're not actually progressive in the way that they're that they're thinking about it.
It's a, it's a way for them to provide another excuse. To not promote someone to not say that they have the experience needed for the next job to not say that they're doing well in their job. It's another excuse for that. Right? And, you know, the reason that, part of the reason actually why I wrote this book too as a white woman [00:21:00] is that I feel, and this is something that, that I feel in my bones, I feel that people who look like me have to fight harder towards DEIJ to make sure that people who don't look like me, that I'm amplifying their voices, that I'm using my privilege for good.
Part of that is because I can show up pretty much however I would like. And it will probably be fine. But if a person who doesn't look like me shows up in that same thing that I would wear, they will not be fine. And that is bad based on again, the status quo, what we look at in business and in corporate America today.
And it's, again, it's all a bunch of bullshit. It's bullshit because it's just an excuse for someone. Who has that, you know, not the understanding of that person is probably a little bit racist, probably a little bit sexist to be able to voice their ism in a way that is found to [00:22:00] be okay for corporate America.
And so I always say it's an excuse. It really is an excuse. And it's a way to consistently keep white people and especially white men above others. Right. And so it is, it's just that continuation of control. A lot of what is put into the status quo and kept up is a mechanism of control to keep white men in charge and to keep everyone else down.
Yeah. And so what we're seeing, this is also like an amazing. Time and history that we're seeing because generationally, we are getting more diverse overall in our country, and that's going to be great. But what does that mean for those who are trying to keep the status quo alive and in line? They're getting scared, and when they're scared, they start to throw out all of these excuses, which then full circle goes back to if you are not a person that looks like me, and you dress however way you want.
Them [00:23:00] being scared and then being afraid that they're losing control, they're going to feel almost more upset that you're feeling like you can show your tattoos or have purple hair or whatever you want to do. Right. And so it's this, it's an excuse. And like you said, it's a trap for a lot of people.
Unless we, as a society move. Forward in this revolution of work to say, yeah, that's some bullshit. We're not going to keep that up.
Nicole Case: Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'm again, like, thinking back on my experience in HR. I remember, um, you know, I did a lot of work around performance and performance reviews. And I remember sitting in, um, sitting in a conference room talking about, you know, the performance of people on the team, doling out performance ratings.
And I remember very vividly. A conversation where we were, we, we got to this one particular black woman who had a fucking PhD, but would like incredibly smart, incredibly accomplished, but was at like, [00:24:00] it was somehow in a lower level job than she should have never been in. But she took it because she was like, I wanted a foot in the door, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And they were hounding on her communication saying that she spoke quote, unquote, To urban and they couldn't put her in front of it. Couldn't put her in front of customers. And I'm like, really? I was like this woman who is incredibly intelligent, super smart. And by the way, she's just delightful. Like she's lovely.
Yeah. You, you all have this bias or like, frankly, are racist piles of shit. And you're sitting there saying that. You
Anessa Fike: can't put her in front of clients because she talks
Nicole Case: too urban. What does that mean? Exactly. Please explain to me what exactly that means. And so that's just another way of saying she's not professional enough.
Her communication isn't, isn't there. Um, I, I put those types of comments and pieces of feedback in performance reviews, um, as like, I put that in the same as like, Oh, she's not strategic enough. She's not technical enough. She's not, [00:25:00] she's not whatever, whatever enough. And like, to me, that's just lazy. That is just lazy feedback.
Give me a very specific instance where this impacted the business in some, in some negative way, shape or form. And they could not, in that moment, they could not, they could not, they could not articulate that. They could not share a one specific instance where a customer complained or a customer didn't, you know, something negatively impacted.
Let's also be clear if a customer complained because another customer complained because she spoke urban and be like, well, we're not going to do business with them. Um, I mean, but anyway, this is a really big, this, um, whether it's how somebody dresses, how somebody speaks like this, I quote, this idea of being professional in the workplace, again, can really negatively impact people.
It keeps people from moving up in their careers. It keeps people from getting the raises that they deserve, getting the titles in order for them to make the impact that, that they need to work. So, right. And so again, this is a big, so this is a big issue that we need to, that [00:26:00] we need to, to, to, um, figure out here.
So what do organizations need to do? Like, what can organizations do to create that environment of inclusivity, belonging, so that everybody can show up in the ways that's most, you know, most comfortable and most authentic for them.
Anessa Fike: So I would say I always, I always like to start with getting real about where you are.
Right. And so there's a lot. Of companies that will say, we're the best. We have the best culture. We're people 1st. Let me tell you how many companies actually are people 1st when they say it almost none. Yeah, almost none. It's almost like that. That thing where it's like. Oh, I, you know, I'm an ally if you call yourself an ally, like, yes, but, like, actually, we want other people to call you an ally.
Right? Like, so it's 1 of those things where if you keep saying your people 1st, I'm in your. Everything you have is people 1st, I'm going to really ask a lot more questions to make sure you understand what you're saying. And so for that piece. It's understanding. Let's get real where we are. We have to know where the starting line is to be able to move [00:27:00] from it.
The second piece is getting real, having real conversations about what are you good at, what are you not good at, and creating space to make it okay to be vulnerable, to have tough conversations, to also. Be able to say and allow to be said to you as a leader when you might be in a status quo in a unconscious bias in a, you know, setting that you think is correct, but actually isn't correct to be able to be pushed by.
Right? So if you are afraid of yes, men and women and non binary friends, you are not a people 1st culture. If you are afraid of tough conversations, you are not a people 1st culture. So you've got to be really real starting and down that path of just being authentic, being vulnerable, being authentic. Then secondarily, being able to say as an organization, these are the things we care [00:28:00] about.
We care about making sure that we are looking across our talent to say, what are we missing? What are the skills we are missing in the people that are here today? Who is doing the job of the next title or the next two titles or quite honestly the next three titles above them, who should get that, that title.
And a lot of organizations don't do this. They may do it from like a skills perception when they're trying to fill roles, but they don't go back and say, what are we missing? What did we miss? And a lot of organizations need to go back and do that. Then once you've done that, you start to create this trust within the organization to where people understand that you're not just bullshitting them.
That you really are holding up to the word of what you say. And that trust goes a long way because then people will start giving you real feedback. They will start telling you what they think. They [00:29:00] will start saying, I've done this thing and I should be given this title. Then you get to a more equitable workforce across, you know, your organization.
And then, you know, all the things that we all know as HR leaders, making sure your job descriptions are not, you know, having. All of these ridiculous requirements, making sure that your compensation is first equal and then equitable, which is separate things, right? Everyone to at least equal first, and then let's talk about equity and then let's just just creating space and holding space.
For time to continue to learn, because as leaders, we should all be continuing to learn. And if you think, you know, at all, you think that you've done it all as a leader, then you're not a leader because you don't get it. Right. And it's just really, as we continue on, especially with Gen Z, continuing to enter the workforce more and then [00:30:00] Gen Alpha behind them, they are going to be the most diverse generations that we've ever seen in this country.
Those things that you used to be able to say and do will not fly anymore, and we are already seeing that. We are already seeing that Gen Z is pushed back and said, oh, if that's how you're operating, I will piece out of the workforce entirely. I will go do my own thing. So what will happen if people don't take this into consideration and don't change and don't really shake things up to fit within kind of the new revolution of work.
And I, I know I'm specifically saying fit in, but it's like a, you know, it's a weird way. Cause it's going to be way more, way more open, but anyway, fit into the revolution of work. They literally will have no people left to want to work for them. And then they will not have a business because last time I knew there was not a business made up entirely of robots.
So if they keep going down this path and saying like, I know how to do this. I'm not going to change. I'm not going to listen, whatever. They will [00:31:00] literally not have a business anymore in like 10, 15 years. So it's changing whether they want it to or not. It's chasing, changing by the mechanism of new generations entering and new generations, not taking any of the other crap that the generations before them.
Yeah.
Nicole Case: Yeah, absolutely. So Anessa, this was so good and such just a scratch of the surface of for hours.
Anessa Fike: Yeah.
Nicole Case: Oh, we could be here all day. Um, so tell us, so if we want to learn more, so like, how do we find your book? Where can we get it and just learn more about you and just the amazing work
Anessa Fike: that you're doing?
Well, thank you so much. Yeah. So if you want to grab a copy of the book, it is where books are sold. So if you want to go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever, go to your local bookstore, ask for it. Um, we're really trying to hone in on independent bookstores and trying to really showcase them during this, um, during this, you know, book sales.
Um, and then also if they want to find me, just catch me on LinkedIn. It's under Anessa [00:32:00] Fike. I say some pretty spicy hot takes a lot of the time, honestly, it's just what I'm thinking in the moment. Find me there, or you can find me on my website, which is fikeandco. com. It's F I K E. Awesome.
Nicole Case: Awesome. And we'll put all of those links, um, in the show notes and, um, definitely go follow on LinkedIn.
I love reading like you're like, it's so funny because for somebody who creates content on LinkedIn, like you're cranking out stuff. multiple times a day, but I know it's you just like, this is my random thought right now. And, and I love it. And it's unfiltered and it's amazing. So again, thank you so much for, for being here and we can, and I cannot wait for everyone to get their hands on your new
Anessa Fike: book.
Amazing. Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks.
